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Post by MarinersGM on Feb 25, 2020 10:18:03 GMT -5
Dodgers send: C Chris Hoiles 27 R R 3.0 $1.2m (1)
P Roger Clemens 30 R R 4.5 $13.5m (2)
Mariners send: P Allan Anderson 28 L L 1.5 $4.0m (3)
P Tim Wakefield AAA 26 R R 3.0 MLC
CF Q. McCracken A 22 S R 2.0 MLC
P Scott Sanders A 23 R R 2.0 MLC
C Dan Wilson AA 23 R R 3.0 MLC
RF Bobby Abreu A 18 L R 4.5 MLC
1993 3rd SEA
1993 2nd SEA
Mariners accept. Emptying a lot of the farm system for a season and a half of Clemens to further the arms race against the As, who just keep pouring it on. Good luck to Dodgers with the rebuild!
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Post by BravesGM on Feb 25, 2020 10:27:35 GMT -5
Wait what?? How did you get Clemens/Hoiles without giving up your best prospects and not even your first round pick?! Dodgers were demanding several 5*s from me and my 1,2,3 picks? This package is insanely worse than what he was asking for from me... I'm very confused... this is a slam dunk deal for the Ms wow.
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Post by AsGM on Feb 25, 2020 12:13:30 GMT -5
Ouch... I really try not comment on deals but this one hurts.
Had what I feel is a better offer sitting on the table for about a week and then this one gets done to my biggest in division rival after the deadline.
I suppose I would have been fine if it was the other way around...is what it is I guess.
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Post by BlueJaysGM on Feb 25, 2020 18:18:20 GMT -5
Same here. I was offering Salkeld plus my 1st+2nd for just Clemens. Seattle stealing players left and right.
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Post by DodgersGM on Feb 25, 2020 19:28:04 GMT -5
Let the 2nd guessing begin.
This was the total deal that I liked the best. There were many offers out there and I inquired on just about every one of them to the parameters of the deal. In all honesty this was there was a deal I liked better but the other gm didn't really pursue it.
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Post by CubsGM on Feb 25, 2020 19:57:59 GMT -5
The trade deadline passed. Not sure how this goes through.
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Post by AsGM on Feb 25, 2020 20:01:09 GMT -5
It’s your team to run as you see fit but I’m just confused why you never rejected or accepted my offer after you commented that you liked it.
It’s still sitting there in the trade tool.
Clemens for ‘92 1st (rights to Nixon) ‘93 1st, ‘94 1st and 20yr old prospect SP Omar Daal 8/7/7 talent
Feel like that deal was much better for you but I suppose I’m biased...lol
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Post by CubsGM on Feb 25, 2020 20:02:25 GMT -5
This can't be happening. I don't think I've seen a more lopsided deal in 15 years of OOTP. Clemens or Hoiles alone, are worth more than a $12M salary dump, a couple mediocre prospects, a couple bad prospects, Bobby Abreu, and the 2nd and 3rd round picks.
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Post by MarinersGM on Feb 25, 2020 20:05:45 GMT -5
The trade deadline passed. Not sure how this goes through. I accepted the offer at 10am...the sim had gone through minutes before apparently, but it wasn't obvious anywhere on the site. The only reason that I wasn't able to accept sooner is that I was in the hospital with my wife.
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Post by MarinersGM on Feb 25, 2020 20:06:52 GMT -5
This can't be happening. I don't think I've seen a more lopsided deal in 15 years of OOTP. Clemens or Hoiles alone, are worth more than a $12M salary dump, a couple mediocre prospects, a couple bad prospects, Bobby Abreu, and the 2nd and 3rd round picks. That is an outlandish and obviously false statement.
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Post by AsGM on Feb 25, 2020 20:54:55 GMT -5
No worries fellas, I’m just feeling a bit salty. Trades are always subjective I suppose. Although not gonna lie, kinda pulling for a Clemens CEI next sim...😎
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Post by BravesGM on Feb 25, 2020 21:07:59 GMT -5
I don't blame Mariners at all, great deal for him.
And LAD is just doing what he feels is best and he's a great GM we all know that.
I'm just surprised how hard ball he played with me demanding my top prospects (as he should) and then accepted such a lesser package (Seattle didn't include their top guys)... feel like I got penalized since I have a better farm than SEA... rich get richer also hurts too haha.
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Post by CubsGM on Feb 26, 2020 5:34:38 GMT -5
Why would a GM turn down three firsts and Daal for Clemens alone? My statement above is not outlandish and false. Break down the trade and projected value.
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Post by MarinersGM on Feb 26, 2020 11:56:56 GMT -5
The notion that this is the most lopsided trade in your 15 years of OOTP is an absolute joke. I will break the trade down from my perspective so you can expand your understanding of OOTP 6.5 and hopefully avoid making such absurd statements in the future.
Hoiles has good ratings, but is a career .241 hitter; stats are far more important than ratings for a player his age. Clemens is a fantastic pitcher right now, but is 30 and is essentially a 1.33 year rental as I likely won't be extending him at 32 for the amount of $ and years he'll want.
On the other side, Bobby Abreu is a top 5 pick and with the high developmental settings in this league, is likely to be a future All-star. For context, I made a trade with the Tigers a while back in which I sent a similarly-aged Gary Sheffield in exchange for several relievers and a starter prospect. I got lucky that Swindell popped, otherwise that would have been a horrendous trade for me, as Sheffield is an MVP candidate at 23 (I will still probably have lost that trade when all is said and done, which is the nature of deals like this with one major headlining prospect). Similarly, if Abreu develops further (or if he happens to improve), the Dodgers will have an awesome player with at least 6 years of cheap control. While it is true this is future value, he's not looking to compete now, so it's even more valuable to him. That's another aspect to consider: Clemens and Hoiles are diminishing assets (especially for a rebuilding team) and would each have had lesser value if the Dodgers had held onto them and dealt them over the offseason instead, giving him great incentive to move them before the deadline. He didn't have a lot of time to do so as he just took over the team, and perhaps I was more responsive than others (I know there was at least one other deal he was waiting on until the last second that he preferred to mine, but the owner didn't get back to him in time).
The Dodgers are also getting a 26-year-old Tim Wakefield who has amazing minors stats and is poised to be a solid MLB contributor, as evidenced by his 3* grade (the game actually rates him as my 2nd best pitcher currently, and while I don't agree with that, it is indicative of his ceiling). The fact that he is a knuckleballer essentially negates his low velocity and stuff ratings (movement is of paramount importance for knuckleballers obviously and he's fully developed at 9). Wakefield has a point of stuff and control to develop, as well, and is loyal with some team leadership skills and a 68 gb %. He doesn't have MLB stats to back him up yet, so time will tell how he does in the majors, but he could easily become a solid mid- to late- rotation starter that, again, the Dodgers will have 6 full years of team control over. That's 12 years of team control to about 4 on my side (and I haven't gotten to the rest of the prospects and picks yet).
Wilson has good pop and will win many Gold gloves even if he doesn't get any increases. If he gets any kind of talent increase (especially to contact), he'll be an all-star at a shallow catcher position. Sanders and McCracken are both borderline players that will likely be backups (or a long reliever in Sanders's case) if they don't get any increase(s). However, at this point the Dodgers are getting quite a bit of quantity and the likelihood that one of the guys I'm sending his way improve via talent increases raises, especially given their young ages. If Sanders were to get a two-pronged increase, for example, he'd be somewhere in the neighborhood of a 9/5/8, which is a high first round pick in these recent drafts. If he never improves, he's a long reliever type, but still serviceable. McCracken's speed and defense also mean he'll have value as a backup (the first thing I'd do is teach him RF and LF in the minors to increase that value) regardless of whether he gets any increases. If McCracken gets even a single increase to his contact, he's now an everyday starter and leadoff man. The 2* players I tend to draft are those that are just one bump away from being everyday players/all-stars, and will be backups even if they only develop to their initial talents (e.g., high defense, speed, no very low ratings that NEED to be improved to be serviceable).
The 2nd and 3rd round picks add some additional future value that he can either use or include as part of another trade. And the Dodgers also sends these two players to the AL, where he doesn't have to face them, which has additional value.
I can't comment on whether it was the best offer the Dodgers got as I wasn't privy to those, but he obviously felt it was from his perspective (and maybe there was additional value in moving both Hoiles and Clemens as a result of the diminishing value). We talked a great number of different permutations, some with Bere, some with Bere/Abreu, and this is ultimately what we landed on.
So, while you may not like the deal because you wanted to land one of these guys, it is inappropriate to comment on it as you have and to belittle the acumen of another owner simply because you're salty your offer(s) weren't accepted. This trade isn't close to the bottom third of deals that I've seen in the 16 years I've played OOTP 6 and 6.5, so either you're being very hyperbolic or you've been in some incredibly well-managed leagues, and I think we both know which is the case. This game is just supposed to be fun! This is the last I'll say on this trade and hopefully we can focus on the rest of the season. Good luck to everyone, and especially the A's as we continue our battle for AL West dominance!
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Post by CubsGM on Feb 26, 2020 21:48:44 GMT -5
I never wanted to land one of those guys. Never even discussed anyone but Bo Jackson with him.
When you start forecasting “increases” you epitomize the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
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